Hey this is Ben...
I agree with most of what Christy said at the end of the period today but I disagree with her claim that someone can just be innately proud. When people use the word proud in a sentence they ususally follow it with the word of and then an object...I am proud of my father, I am proud of my test score. I am proud of our lacrosse game. If the word proud is not followed by the word of it's followed by "to be", for example, I'm proud to be an American, I'm proud to be German, or I'm proud to be a Texan. It can be argued that this second type of proud (the "to be" type) is not equivalent of innate pride but this is not really the case. When someone says they're innately proud to be American, German, or Texan, they're not actually innately proud. Because simply being an American isn't exactly an accomplishment, they're proud to be an American for some reason or set of reasons, that, even if they only exist in the person's self concious, still exist all the same. It's more than just a "gut feeling." Maybe they're proud because they like America's welfare system, our constitutional values, or they like the fact that we have the world's strongest military. Basically, People might claim to have a "gut sense" or an "innate" pride to be an American, but this is nothing more than a subconsious affinity for abstract American values or concrete American successes. If a particular country had a rapacious dictator, failing economy, racist values, abundance of crime, and widespread genocide, I'd be willing to bet that nobody in that country would have a "gut sense of innate pride" to be a citizen. Lee Greenwood understands this idea perfectly in his song "Proud to be an American." In this song he sings: "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died who gave that right to me." In those lyrics he expresses his pride, then uses examples of both abstract American values (freedom) and concrete American success (men who died valiently in battle). This whole argument, of course, is based off my own meanings of the words. Dictionary.com defines innate as "existing in one from birth" and proud as "feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly credible or honorable." Because of the meanings of these words, and the fact that nobody feels satisfaction over accomplishments the very second they are born, "innate pride" is an oxymoron.
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8 comments:
I see Ben's point and I'm not saying everything I said was 100% right if there is such a thing but I still do believe people can be proud without a good cause or maybe even a very specific one. Isn't it possible for people to say I think a lot of people refuse to think of themselves as lower or "not as good" as someone else. I think its part of human nature that we need to prove ourselves among our peers. I think a lot of people use pride as a shell to make it seem like they are content when really they are just trying to fit in a certain group or stereotype. There might also be a problem with how Ben and I are defining our terms....or not. But I believe pride can exist independently. We all know people approach problems differently. I also think another side of pride is as a defense mechanism not just as a result of an accomplishment. I think pride can take the form of putting others down to make yourself feel better. Pride isn't just "I'm proud of______" I define it more as just an attitude and how one person views others. I think pride is all about putting yourself in perspective with others. Saying "I'm proud of my dad" is more like a compliment to your dad. But you can have self-pride right? In my opinion, Willie expressed pride just by turning down a job that he thought was below him. I also thought Willie's pride was hurt by Ben who made him feel like he was sub-par.
Sorry that was Cristy. If you didn't guess. Thanks.
Hey, it's Jasmine.
I agree with Ben that there's no such thing as "innate pride." When you're born, I don't think there's anything you're automatically proud of. Pride is definitely a result of the environment where you grow up. I remember reading about these twin girls who are proud to be white supremacists: they say their hero is Hitler and claim that, yes, concentration camps existed, but there were swimming pools and tennis courts. Their white supremacist pride is not something they were born with - it's because of how their parents raised them. So, Willy Loman's pride was influenced by the society of the period and the his individual experiences - like the fact that his brother Ben was so much more successful, like Cristy said.
Cristy, you said "I still do believe people can be proud without a good cause or maybe even a very specific one." I agree with that, but I think you and Ben are just arguing over the definition of "innate." Maybe you mean "subconscious" pride - I can't really think of a good word right now. But you mean that someone can feel pride without really thinking about it or understanding why, right? I don't think you meant that people are born with pride for their race, gender, country, etc.
Hey, it's Erin.
I think that everyone has pride in some form or another. I think pride has a lot to do with self-image: this is who I am, this is what I can do, etc. As Jasmine pointed out, these opinions are influenced by our environment. You get the idea of the "norm" from those you hang around with, and you develop conceptions about yourself as a result. This puts pressure on people to act in a certain way, to fit in with the group. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that everyone has pride in some way or another, due to their conceptions (influenced by society) about who they are and where they are going.
I see what you're saying Cristy but I don't think that Willy turning down a job he thought was below him would constitute an example if innate or unexplainable pride. Instead, I think the pride that he felt from turning down this job came from the fact that he was proud OF himself for refusing to settle for lower standards or that he was proud OF himself for thinking that he could land a better job himself (even f it didin't turn out that way.)
"he was proud OF himself for thinking that he could land a better job himself" what is the difference between that and being proud of yourself just because you are you. That would be Willie being proud. He had no real reason to think that he was better than Charlie all evidence to the contrary actually. and STILL. Did he have an MD? no. its not like he was over qualified or something...Do you really need something to be proud? cause it seems to me like Willie had nothing.
Hey ladiezzz it's Grace.
I agree with both of you (hahaha). I think that "innate" pride always has a source, whether or not a person knows it. We are conditioned from birth to be proud of our homeland. Like when they make you say the pledge of allegiance in elementary school and nobody has any clue what it means. Or as a little kid on the 4th of July you might go to see a fun parade or go to a party and see lots of patriotic images. So from birth we are conditioned to equate these symbols with things we like (parades, parties). This actually is summed up in a quote I added to the end of my neoclassicism paper cause I thought it was really funny. I read it in class, but I'll post it again here.
Every day we're told that we live in the greatest country on earth. And it's always stated as an undeniable fact: Leos are born between July 23 and August 22, fitted queen-size bed sheets measure sixty by eighty inches, and America is the greatest country on earth. Having grown up with this in our ears, it's startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are �We're number two!
I'd have to agree with Ben here. Pride is an inherently comparative concept and as such we cannot define what it is to be proud without having some common object to reference with other people. An analogous situation is that although we can quantitatively define "heat" as the vibration of particles, what is cold? We define cold as the absence of heat, but any to refer to a certain absence of heat is to refer to a certain point past which it stops being "hot" and starts being "cold" Similarly, in order to reference pride, we must have some value to hold it against. For example, to say I am proud to be an American is really saying that I feel good about living in perhaps the most technologically, economically, and militarily advanced nations in the world. Boy, im glad im not a subsistence farmer in subsaharan africa. The very fact that pride depends on some external reference point to exist shows that there cannot be true internal pride. However, it is still important to note that this external reference is dependent on ones perception (Hawakawa's no two words...). Essentially, I might be proud as stated above, but for someone else the qualities I described may cause shame. In short though, any comparative notion involves an external reference.
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